tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.comments2023-05-17T01:09:54.656-07:00The Evangelical Calvinist In Plain LanguageBobby Growhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comBlogger557125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-48930349280903459032014-01-16T23:02:51.794-08:002014-01-16T23:02:51.794-08:00The true depth of God's love for mankind has n...The true depth of God's love for mankind has not yet been fully revealed. It will be shown more fully in the resurrection of mankind to earth in Christ's kingdom on earth.<br />http://youtu.be/DxC8LQ5GYiALorettanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-36111565906410335462013-12-05T15:46:48.310-08:002013-12-05T15:46:48.310-08:00The Evangelical's Rosary:
(Arminian) Evangeli...The Evangelical's Rosary:<br /><br />(Arminian) Evangelical Christianity teaches that my salvation is dependent on MY decision to accept Christ, and my assurance of salvation is dependent on MY feelings of his continued presence in my heart.<br /><br />But what happens during times of hardship and trial when I don't feel saved? Answer: I repeat my born again experience again and again until I finally feel absolutely certain that I am saved!<br /><br />Thousands, maybe millions, of Evangelical Christians struggle with doubts and fears regarding their salvation and eternal destiny due to this faulty theology. They have no sure assurance of salvation! They are praying the Sinner's Prayer again and again as if it were a Rosary. <br /><br />The Sinner's Prayer:<br /><br />"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for<br />Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."<br /><br /> http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com/2013/12/arminian-evangelicalisms-dirty-little.html<br />Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-45807061386202187722013-08-16T14:49:28.305-07:002013-08-16T14:49:28.305-07:00Apparently, you're redifining the meaning of t...Apparently, you're redifining the meaning of the word "love".<br /><br />If it can mean "unconditionally condemning someone to eternal torment", it has no relation to our human word."<br /><br /><br />Lovely greetings from Germany<br />Liebe Grüsse aus Deutschland<br /><br />Lothars Sohn - Lothar's son<br />http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.comMarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08328792937888689350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-42193064072030132452013-08-12T15:41:58.636-07:002013-08-12T15:41:58.636-07:00SAVING FAITH COMES FROM HEARING GOD'S WORD
Do ...SAVING FAITH COMES FROM HEARING GOD'S WORD<br />Do men receive faith, that saves, because God arbitrarily bestows them with faith? Does God predetermined who will be saved and them cause them to have faith so they can be saved? No and No.<br /><br />Faith comes from hearing God's word preached.<br /><br />Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(NKJV)<br /><br />Romans 10:14 How they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?(NKJV)<br /><br />Faith comes when men believe the gospel. Faith is not forced on men by God. <br /><br />MISUNDERSTOOD PROOF-TEXT EPHESIANS 2:8<br /><br />Ephesians 2:8 is used to prove that faith is a gift from God, however, that is not what is says.<br /><br />Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God,(NKJV)<br /><br />Salvation is the gift from God. Faith is not the gift.<br /><br />Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.<br /><br />Why would Jesus condemn men who do not believe if God is the one who arbitrarily bestows faith on men so they can be saved?<br /><br />To have faith that Jesus is the Son of God is a choice. To trust in God is a choice. To believe that God resurrected Jesus from the grave is a choice. To believe that Jesus is both Lord and Christ is a choice. God does not force men to have faith. Saving faith is the not a gift from God. Salvation is the gift from God.<br /><br />WHAT MUST MEN DO TO BE SAVED? <br /><br />1. Hear the gospel. Romans 10:17<br />2. Believe. John 3:16<br />3. Confess. Romans 10:9<br />4. Repent. Acts 3:19<br />5. Be baptized in water. Acts 2:38 <br /><br /> <br />YOU ARE INVITED TO FOLLOW MY CHRISTIAN BLOG. Google search>>>steve finnell a christian viewSteve Finnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12863026367048527526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-32077154057894579812013-06-29T08:45:54.036-07:002013-06-29T08:45:54.036-07:00Oh now it did! :) Or didn't...give me wordpre...Oh now it did! :) Or didn't...give me wordpress mate! ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-41488303042108273132013-06-29T08:41:36.507-07:002013-06-29T08:41:36.507-07:00Interesting! Indeed some of these are viable and t...Interesting! Indeed some of these are viable and true, and some of course could be debated!<br /><br />Btw, I have been in a personal great debate with someone over Barth's theology, and too both Barth and Von Kirschbaum, themselves! Wow, what "fundamentalist" judgments some have against Barth.. Just amazing! Of course I will always see Barth as a modern church father, though as all the fathers, never infallible!<br /><br />Anonymous? Not sure why my wordpress did not go thru...Irishanglican.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-42416789090810781422013-05-10T10:34:50.520-07:002013-05-10T10:34:50.520-07:00Here's a link to Macleods article
http://www.b...Here's a link to Macleods article<br />http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2000-1_057.pdf James Moriartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00411494834202473616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-61924652453132667052013-05-02T15:39:22.010-07:002013-05-02T15:39:22.010-07:00Bobby, I just read through your material on Chandl...Bobby, I just read through your material on Chandler/Piper since that is where I come from theologically. I am so excited that you are challenging these guys in such an educated manner (ok, so I am no longer chafed by your super-brain!) I feel like I really have some place to direct folks who are steeped (and personally drying up) in this theology. Several of them are pastors in churches that are falling apart so I think they may be ready to hear an evaluation of what clearly has not been working. After I read your responses to comments I respect and value even more your credentials (and your respectful and gracious tone!) I am realizing that you are not just an "expert" or an "intellectual" but more like a surgeon who can precisely cut away the diseased elements in our theology. We don't all need to be doctors, but we do need them(!) So I am glad there is someone like you who can pinpoint the problems. Most people just experience a vague sense that something is not quite right.<br /><br />I was trying to view McCormack's video and couldn't bring it up. I couldn't find it by googling it either but read some of his stuff. You piqued my interest so I really want to watch. philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-4281102203879461392013-05-01T08:10:32.225-07:002013-05-01T08:10:32.225-07:00Hey your "chipper" was gracious. I can g...Hey your "chipper" was gracious. I can get very passionate and perhaps come across very ungracious at times. I have had a recent revelation about how you lose the beauty when you let passion turn into argument(!) <br /><br />I would be VERY enthused about a book for the average layperson that unpacks the EC view.<br /><br />As I was searching out material on the Torrance brothers I came across a Dr C. Baxter Kruger who studied under JBT. I have appreciated his emphasis on the Trinitarian inclusion of humanity (his site is called "Perichoresis"). Not sure where he stands as far as EC or UR. Are you familiar with him? <br /><br />Thanks for the tips on best navigating through your book. It is going well and I don't feel as lost as I had imagined I would be.<br /><br />philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-49258840376173674852013-04-29T18:36:35.786-07:002013-04-29T18:36:35.786-07:00Phillip,
Sorry if I came off more chipper than I ...Phillip,<br /><br />Sorry if I came off more chipper than I should have! I realize that you have not been reading me for all that long, it is just hard for me, given my time constraints to try and explain all of this in primer like ways. That is something I need to work on for a publication or something.<br /><br />I am glad to hear that you got our book, and that it is blessing you. I would suggest reading the Intro and then chapter 15 and our Theses, prior to reading the rest of the book; this will help orient the rest of the volume, which is not as pointed in regard to explicitly naming the themes as Myk and I have in our theses. That said, these theses are developed in the rest of the essays of the book, sometimes, though in round about ways by looking at Calvin, Barth, Torrance and/or other Scottish theologians.<br /><br />Sweet glad to hear that Calvin is getting another hearing from you! <br /><br />The price is spendy, primarily because of the amount of pages, and thus ink and paper that has to be spilled in order to publish it :-).Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-42541077581712340372013-04-29T13:16:02.813-07:002013-04-29T13:16:02.813-07:00Hey Bobby, just want to mention that I now have yo...Hey Bobby, just want to mention that I now have your book and have begun to read it. I repent of my comment on the price, obviously I did not understand the value of a theological volume such as this(!) This is indeed an amazing compilation and I see now that it is worth every penny. <br /><br />I know that you don't want to be defined by what you're against but I find the fact that it is in contrast to the Federal Vision movement encouraging (which is the position of my former pastor which seemed to wreak havoc on the people).<br /> <br />I know I am not going to understand or track with everything but I am loving what I am reading so far. Again, this could provide some real freedom for my loved ones and friends who are in desperate need of seeing, as you posted, "'God is love' as the starting point." Forgive me for initially coming on so strong with my probing questions and not primarily as a learner. <br /><br />I am now even inspired to dust off my Calvin Institutes and Commentaries. <br />philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-35947023696821611362013-04-25T21:55:57.871-07:002013-04-25T21:55:57.871-07:00I believe that prolegomena, in Barth, is only hi...I believe that prolegomena, in Barth, is only his summary preface before a given chapter. His methodology is the dialectic. John Smithsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12097274076333934922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-75190263269412059822013-04-23T14:34:55.308-07:002013-04-23T14:34:55.308-07:00Bobby, hey, sorry...I don't know what came ove...Bobby, hey, sorry...I don't know what came over me. : )<br /><br />But as I prefaced I was not expecting a personal response but I felt compelled to lay out my questions for your own pondering in case something resonated. But apparently I brought nothing new to your table beyond what you have already "hashed and rehashed" before and resolved in your own mind. And also, apparently, my questions reveal I have little clue as to what your view represents(!) I will read the posts you recommended. At first I was very discouraged but now I am intrigued to press on. <br /><br />In the meantime I will continue to direct those whom I know struggling within the neo-Reformed dessert to at least the inclusive understanding of our Trinitarian God through His incarnation in Christ. I have been sharing Athanasius' gem "On the Incarnation" with folks. Also I want to read more of TFT after being drawn by his quote here. AND I did order your book (ouch, $43! Amazon).<br /><br />But does there exist a "primer" on this topic of the vicarious humanity of Christ that might be easier to understand that I might share this more hopeful presentation of the atonement with those who would not be inclined to read your book?<br /><br />BTW, I was not saying you are a part of any movement except that of the Holy Spirit which is happening amongst the wider Body of Christ as one, together. That is why I feel compelled to understand your view because I believe it will fill out and enhance my theology as a co-member of that Body. And hopefully that means a better understanding of the person and work of Christ and therefore more love for Him...and others (that the world will know!)<br />philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-55528802781297501462013-04-20T14:45:17.029-07:002013-04-20T14:45:17.029-07:00Or Philip,
You can read this, which is more poin...Or Philip, <br /><br />You can read this, which is more pointed, and offers a glimpse into some EC themes: http://growrag.wordpress.com/the-themes-of-evangelical-calvinism/Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-10932906793347283252013-04-20T14:37:17.744-07:002013-04-20T14:37:17.744-07:00Philip,
You have asked way too much of me here; a...Philip,<br /><br />You have asked way too much of me here; and I have already spent (literally) years responding and responding to all of your questions above. So I won't rehash all of that. You can buy our book and find out the answers to some of your questions, and you can start by reading some posts of mine in my Evangelical Calvinism category: http://growrag.wordpress.com/category/evangelical-calvinism/<br /><br />Based upon your questions above, you have not grasped, really at all, what we are offering. When you say "our salvation", we don't believe salvation is our's, per se; the only saved humanity is Christ's, and so we offer a view of salvation that is Christ conditioned, grounded in Christ's humanity for us, and a view of salvation that is purely participationist. The Vicarious Humanity of Christ is key and central to our view of everything.<br /><br />I don't agree with you about Christian Universalism, and I don't see EC as part of that movement. <br /><br />We have a chapter in our book titled: <em>"Suffer the Little Children to come to me, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven": Infant Salvation and the Destiny of the Severely Mentally Disabled</em> written by Myk Habets. Again, you will have to buy our book to find out how we answer this question. It is grounded in the Vicarious Humanity of Christ. Here is a post that I wrote that applies some of this to the kids who died in the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut: http://growrag.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/where-did-the-children-in-connecticut-go-heaven-or-hell-a-reflection-and-accounting-of-the-age-of-accountability-and-the-vicarious-humanity-of-christ/Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-3671150726071763952013-04-20T09:16:06.542-07:002013-04-20T09:16:06.542-07:00continued...
6. I understand why Parry almost yet...continued...<br /><br />6. I understand why Parry almost yet still did not convince you of UR. It is enormously bigger than any one person or group could deliver. We need the Body of Christ to reveal it in its fullness. And I believe that is exactly what we are seeing. Our main thesis on our site/blogs is that UR is the comprehensive Story that the Body of Christ is revealing together...at the same time (just not in the same location...yet!)<br /><br />At present His Body is torn asunder. It is dismembered and disfigured through our denominationalism and the desire for all of us to be right at the same time (well, maybe just mostly right).<br /><br />Throughout history parts of the Body have refused to occupy the same worship space because of their contradictory views. The Calvinists and Arminians call one another heretics. Yet we all claim to be members of the same Body. <br /><br />But both Calvinist and Arminian believers according to Scripture literally co-exist in the same Body (unless one group concedes that the other are not actually true members of Christ's Body but reprobates). This Body, together, creates the vision of the ultimate restoration of all. Granted both would be required to shed some doctrines. But if they hold up the doctrines they treasure the most the result is the message of the sovereign God who is able to do all He intended and desired to do "from the beginning," from within the Trinitarian heart of God.<br /><br />There is immensely more to this vision than just merging the Cal/Arm views. Different parts of the Body are illuminating for us the full Story of God through emphasizing: the true nature of restorative justice, God's "missional" heart, our identity in Christ, the return of a resurrection focus, the wider implications of social justice, the cosmic nature of redemption and "the restoration of all creation," the "radical grace" message, the rediscovery of the Trinity as it relates to our inclusiveness in Christ...and there are many more(!) <br /><br />So I am not dogmatic about what 'I' believe but I am dogmatic about the Body of Christ for whom Christ Himself prayed would be one in order "that the world would know." I stake my claim on this prayer by Jesus Himself to be answered. I believe we are seeing it. And I believe that you Bobby are a part of it as you delineate what you call "Evangelical Calvinism." <br /><br />I will end by saying that I appreciate your work here to rescue a vision of God which is much more Biblical and alluring than the one many Christians adhere to but are increasingly being disillusioned by. I know you would disagree at this time but I see EC as a precursor to something even bigger... "beyond all we could ever hope or imagine."<br /><br />grace and peace...<br /><br />phillip@godslovewins.comphilliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-6210960849496457562013-04-20T08:54:48.763-07:002013-04-20T08:54:48.763-07:00Continued...
5. One word you used was "obvio...Continued...<br /><br />5. One word you used was "obviously" in the context of your human experience/reality as one of the evidences you used to conclude that not all are saved. Could that possibly be a dangerous assumption? For obviously Jesus was just a man ...and obviously He must have had a demon. Obviously the Messiah was nothing like Jesus. Obviously, the dead are not raised. Obviously, it is impossible for a rich person to ever be saved. Obviously you can't "call those things which are 'not' as if they are." philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-18752290696207745612013-04-20T08:52:18.565-07:002013-04-20T08:52:18.565-07:00Bobby, here are a few final things I would like to...Bobby, here are a few final things I would like to run by you with a number of questions and some concluding thoughts from my perspective. (I hope to be some of that "iron sharpening iron" and not annoying!) I understand if you don't want to take the time to go through all of it in a response here. But I leave it with you and have appreciated the dialogue. I will continue to seek to understand better the EC position as I continue to explore your site. <br /><br />1. What do we make of the fact that this gospel message that is defined by TFT has rarely been offered to sinners but instad it has been almost invariably a polluted gospel? Has God put the fate of mankind in the hands of so many incompetent preachers? Is it then in our own hands to create a saving faith out of the scraps of law and gospel un-rightly divided by most proclaimers of the "gospel"? I am feeling the tension that Steve brought up of where does the ultimate responsibility lie for our salvation? <br /><br />How does your theological paradigm provide for the unreached, the impaired, children, those who have been abused by the Church, those who have heard a truncated gospel or worse? <br /><br />2. Would it not be more Scriptural to rely on the "one faith" of Christ who believes in His own ability to redeem and recreate us in His image (His original intention) rather than in our faith that is first of all human, and second represents not one but millions of subsets of interpretations of that faith? And why do Scriptures like Gal 2:20 translate more accurately to say, "I live by the faith OF the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me"? (Also see Eph 3:12 in original.) <br /><br />Is it not of first importance what God believes and has revealed about His creation rather than of what we believe about Him? ("We love because He first loved us.") Is not the substance of our faith first in the faith/faithfulness of the Son of God? Is it not His thoughts about us that define us rather than our thoughts about Him that define Him? David was overwhelmed by God's thoughts of him in Psalm 139. His faith and worship were his response to God's loving thoughts towards him. <br /><br />3. Regarding determinism: Could it be that WE are the ones on a self-created path of determinism towards death and destruction through the bondage of lies and darkness, while God, who is the ONLY truly free Being in the universe, has set out to restore us into our ORIGINAL freedom as His image-bearers? ...into the original freedom we were intended to share "in the beginning" within the Trinitarian relationship where we, His Eikons, were birthed in His thoughts? (Eph 1; Jn 1)<br /> <br />4. Maybe it is not sin that is the principle mystery. You are willing to consider sin to be "inexplicable" in order to maintain your paradigm but what if it is the love of God that is past finding out, inscrutable? Just because you don't know HOW His love could provide for all being ultimately restored does that mean you can't accept the "tension"? (which you seem to be willing to do with what you call "the inexplicableness of sin.") I have simply chosen to consider the ultimate triumph of the love of God to be the mystery I live in (and to be my "starting point.") <br /><br />Again, why does sin get to be that mystery of tension you choose to live in, why not the love of God? You are satisfied to leave the inexplicableness of an aspect of salvation to mystery and live in that tension. Why can you not live with the "tension" of the unsearchableness of God's love and mercy and ability to "draw all" to Himself, causing every knee to bow and tongue confess, reconciling all things to Himself to literally be "all in all"? (As Talbott points out there is just as much prima facie evidence for UR as the Cal/Arm positions)<br /> philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-48789064281211834272013-04-18T19:40:41.192-07:002013-04-18T19:40:41.192-07:00Philip,
I am glad that you appreciate what TFT ha...Philip,<br /><br />I am glad that you appreciate what TFT has offered and what EC is about!<br /><br />Actually if someone follows the Scotist thesis (technical theology alert ;-), then the existence of sin does not dictate to God how God should be or act--and I follow this thesis. Plus, TFT and my critique of classical Calvinism is one that says that classical theism (the philosophy behind classical Calvinism/Arminianism etc.)ends up collapsing God into the creation, by making God's being contingent upon meeting the dictates of the absolute decrees (which include sin); and so my critique is yours, but articulated differently. I will have to come back and explain the Scotist thesis at another time.<br /><br />Yes, read my post, I think it will be insightful for you, relative to how I approach this question.<br /><br />If I were to explain accidents to someone who is "un-trained," I would just say that reprobation, so called, has no real place relative to God's intended plan for creation and recreation in Christ. And that reprobation, proper, has been taken care of in Christ's assumption of our humanity, finally realized and put to death at the cross. I would say that the fact that people still reject their election in Christ remains a mystery. And I would further have to explain to them how I do not think from a logical causal Stoic and determinist framework when affirming such things.<br /><br />If I believed that UR could be "proven" true, Robin Parry would have been the one to persuade me; he almost did. But in the final analysis, for me, he did not.<br /><br />I am aware of the tradition of marital mysticism and Pauline theology, and advocate for a form of that from the Puritan Richard Sibbes. Nevertheless, if it can be said that this romancing or heavy wooing WILL terminate in the salvation of all, then when reduced, it still comes out as a qualified determinism. <br /><br />Actually, I do believe that all of 'real' humanity is saved, w/o exception. Real humanity is Christ's humanity for us. In order for individual humans to subjectively participate this, they must trust in the Father's promises to the Son, and thus trust in the Son, for salvation. <br /><br />@Steve,<br /><br />I am not sure what Billings thinks about universal atonement, I will have to ask him; I'll let you know. <br /><br />And I am pretty sure Billings is more classical and Calvinian when it comes to 'awakening to faith', but he would believe that this comes from Christ's humanity first, I think. <br /><br />I will have to think further about some other recommendations for you.<br /><br />How would your friend substantiate that Knox was a murderer. It was a different time, I have a post somewhat defending Calvin in the Servetus incident. Not totally defending him, but providing historical perspective.<br />Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-81088618767658322282013-04-18T09:01:51.790-07:002013-04-18T09:01:51.790-07:00Bobby, BTW, that last question regarding your &quo...Bobby, BTW, that last question regarding your "desire" for UR to be proven true was not asking you for the invitation for me to make an attempt. It was just something I was curious to know.<br /><br />Steve, I second your question: "if God doesn’t take us by force, how does our will become awakened and cognizant enough to choose the narrow road over the wide road? (while other wills are not awakened at all)" This was the nagging question I was left with when I needed to abandon my neo-Calvinism. <br /><br />I also wondered similarly: Are those who were atoned for but end up in eternal hell "forgiven" by God? (Hence my question above, "Is forgiveness prior to faith and repentance?") philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-77562393627635834792013-04-17T23:36:08.712-07:002013-04-17T23:36:08.712-07:00I agree with your last comment - you can call it E...I agree with your last comment - you can call it EC for dummies!! :) (or EC for stevez who just doesn't get it!) :<br /><br />My son is 24 and smarter than I am so I read and we conversed about what the exact point you and Myk were getting at. He says he is having a hard time differentiating what I have been teaching and EC, it is all a blur to him at this point. And it was a bit much as we discussed points one through 9 in one sitting. <br /><br />I am halfway through Billings Union with Christ - read Purves on the same subject, both are very enlightening. <br /><br />Billings book is amazing as it answers many of the questions I am wrestling with (assurance and man's responsibility) I love the illustrations he comes up with and am tempted to buy his first book on Calvin. <br />I don’t think he addresses (at least not so far as I have read) the point of the Holy Spirit awakening the believer to salvation – he rejects Arminianism and makes it quite clear why, but I can’t find the opposite of that, if God doesn’t take us by force, how does our will become awakened and cognizant enough to choose the narrow road over the wide road? (while other wills are not awakened at all) <br /><br />Does Billings hold to universal atonement? And what does UA have to do with why some people are still sent to hell. His stuff on free will was great but also left me scratching my head a bit. <br /><br />Anything else you would recommend from or about either Torrance or Barth? After reading Scottish Theology and mentioned John Knox to my hyper Calvinistic friend he said “what, that murderer?” <br /><br />I pointed out that Calvin as well has blood on his hands. <br /><br />It was a different time <br /><br />Thanks for hitting me back. I will continue my ruminations and carry on in learning the erudite ways of the smart guys. <br /> <br />stevezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11138766250820193250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-19685524498915095952013-04-17T23:31:42.940-07:002013-04-17T23:31:42.940-07:00continued...
I am assuming there are a couple of ...continued...<br /><br />I am assuming there are a couple of foundational differences leading us to our conclusions on this. I believe one is the difference between the Augustinian/legal mindset and the Athanasius/Trinitarian/relational mindset(?) I am starting at "in the beginning" (John 1, literally "of first importance") with the relationship of Father, Son and Spirit not with sin/fall.<br /><br />The other would be a misunderstanding of what you see as "determinism." I agree that particular redemption IS determinism because it is tied to predestination. UR does not imply determinism. I think what is overlooked when questioning how all are reconciled to Christ is the very relational and God-inspired element of "romance." It’s what Jesus said He would do and what the prophets said God would do. John 12:32; Hosea; Ez 16; Isa 19 (http://godslovewins.com/blog/have-you-considered-the-power-of-divine-romance/)<br /><br />You qualified what you meant by ultimate restoration to mean not literally all people but simply a symbolic/representative restoration in an archetypical way(?) But if I told you that "all" survived the plane crash and your mother was on that flight you would have sure hope, until you were told "No, we mean that all kinds of people survived" or "no, just a representative group survived." I think to talk of a reconciliation of all things (Col 1) and then say it really doesn't mean all things/people is not good news, especially if any of your family and friends went "down with the ship" of ECT.<br /><br />That "psychologically unsettling" feeling you spoke of, does that mean you would at least DESIRE that UR could be proven true? <br /><br />Thank you again for your gracious engagement with my questions.<br /><br />grace and peace...philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-20967795546390880402013-04-17T23:08:24.401-07:002013-04-17T23:08:24.401-07:00Thank you Steve, I can relate to being "intel...Thank you Steve, I can relate to being "intellectually impaired." Yes, I feel that too and I also desire to understand but I am glad that while Bobby is gifted beyond me with intelligence it is not a requirement for understanding the kingdom(!) (btw--UR stands for Ultimate Restoration of all mankind and ECT is "eternal conscious torment")<br /><br />Bobby, I am grateful for your time and patience in your reply.<br /><br />I am forming a better understanding of your position as it relates to mine. I think what drew me into your site was the quote by T.F. Torrence as it appeared in the context of "TEC." That to me was a curious thing. The quote is just breathtaking and is not something I would have heard in my 30 years in my Reformed Pres church. As this sentiment must represent what you are about I am excited to share this vision with my friends/family who do not yet have faith for UR as I shared. It is definitely a "mood" I would like to see take root. <br /><br />It was the predestination doctrine, not knowing if God is really for you, that hijacked my assurance. But as I am trying to understand, if Christ has offered Himself in such a way as Torrence has so beautifully elucidated here then the only thing holding anyone from salvation would be ...what? Is it blindness? Is the "persistent sin" you are talking about breaking the 10 commandments or is it not believing the true nature of our Father? Do you believe forgiveness is prior to repentance and faith? (J. B. Torrence) If so is it the unbelief in the Father heart of God what ultimately keeps us from Him?<br /><br />1. I don't believe the why of sin is a mystery/inexplicable: "He consigned all over to disobedience that He might have mercy on them all." Rom 11:32 The mystery is perhaps how "the opposition" came into being which He then orchestrated to be used for greater good. ("You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done..." Gen 50:20) <br /> <br />As long as sin dictates to God how He should act then this "inexplicable sin" is in eternal opposition to God and IMO is therefore dualism. Sin does not dictate to God how He should act. Love does. His loving purpose is to "destroy the works of the devil," "not willing that any should perish."<br /><br />2. I won't argue against your conviction that ECT was taught by Christ. I understand you see no way around it at this time. Thanks for the link-I will read your post on it.<br /><br />3. I believe 'all' is defined by Paul as "all without exception" in passages such as 2 Cor 5 and Romans 5. Paul, who penned two-thirds of the NT, and who said in Acts 20:27 that he covered the "whole counsel of God," only mentioned "hell" once and it was this: "O Death, where is your victory; 'Hell' where is your sting?" (1 Cor 15)<br /><br />4. My apologies for sounding insensitive. I should have phrased it: the average person who has limited theological/philosophical knowledge. I also am a real person who has struggled with the issue of assurance and have watched as many others have been in bondage over this. But thank you for graciously explaining the philosophical terminology. I wanted a clearer definition of what you meant by "accidents" and how you pastorally would explain that to someone who is struggling, a child, or a friend who asks "How do I know that I am not self-deceived about my salvation?" philliphttp://www.godslovewins.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-52130958954513398882013-04-17T20:01:10.273-07:002013-04-17T20:01:10.273-07:00What exactly would you like clarified? For me to t...What exactly would you like clarified? For me to try and provide a synopsis of all of the theses in layman language would require a lot of work. In fact I think that might even be a good little book project. ;-)Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-35093326280982274582013-04-17T20:00:00.533-07:002013-04-17T20:00:00.533-07:00I will keep trying Steve.I will keep trying Steve.Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.com