tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post8315831600870847353..comments2023-05-17T01:09:54.656-07:00Comments on The Evangelical Calvinist In Plain Language: The Gospel Coalition, Resurgence, RE: Train: And The American Evangelical Captivity to Five Point Calvinist TheologyBobby Growhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-24384094593608415632012-08-18T17:46:52.892-07:002012-08-18T17:46:52.892-07:00I really wasn't thinking of the average person...I really wasn't thinking of the average person in the pew. I was thinking of pastors and certain lay leaders -- the sort of people who actually consult TGC resources and go to conferences like Desiring God and Ligonier. These people are most certainly capable of knowing that TGC is explicitly Calvinist. I've been in Ev-Free, Southern Baptist, and Presbyterian churches that include both ordained and lay leaders who are very aware that TGC is Calvinist. If your Calvary Chapel folks can't tell a Reformed statement of faith from Adam and Eve, then oh well. <br /><br />This might be a regional difference between us. I am certain that I can walk into any Southern Baptist church in my area (all a hundred of them!), and every pastor on staff and every Sunday school teacher could tell me where they stand on the Calvinism issue. I'm not being hyperbolic -- <i>every single one</i> could tell me. Most don't know a thing about Barthianism, obviously, but they certainly know the basics of 5-point Calvinism.<br /><br />I actually knew a Calvary Chapel guy (a co-worker) when I was living in Iowa a couple years ago. He had left his Calvary Chapel congregation after discovering Desiring God resources, John Piper, and Mark Driscoll. He was actually applying to Piper's "seminary" at Bethlehem Baptist Church. He was fully aware of his newfound Reformed identity...after the typical journey of reading Reformed apologetic literature, talking with his pastors, debating friends, shunning his "man-centered" thinking, and so forth. <br /><br />Now, there is a lot that I don't like about TGC. The cult of personality is certainly one thing (Piper and MacArthur have their own seminaries, perpetuating the cult of personality). Patriarchy and Creationism would be high on my list of concerns as well. And, I respectfully disagree with their theology. But, Bobby, you really seem incapable of objectively critiquing this movement. You cite personal difficulties and falling out with friends, and I can understand why. Your animosity seethes through your blog posts. Double predestination is not the devilish thing you think it is. This whole libel screed is a shame. You have no evidence (just personal vitriol) about supposed covert methods of TGC.<br /><br />Sorry if this comes across as a personal attack. My concern is that you use your energy and talents to better ends. This post (and similar posts you've written) is, frankly, a grave misuse of your talents, Bobby. I don't have half the blogging energy that you have! I want to see your voice heard, but this undermines that voice.Kevin Davishttp://dogmatics.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-67092511405339678432012-08-17T20:44:39.606-07:002012-08-17T20:44:39.606-07:00Cal,
Yes, there is the personality cult thingy to...Cal,<br /><br />Yes, there is the personality cult thingy too; I know we all struggle with this one as humans!<br /><br />I wouldn't question if Driscoll is a Christian, but I obviously question the credibility of his theological approach.Bobby Grownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-73661414031890678682012-08-17T20:31:13.601-07:002012-08-17T20:31:13.601-07:00I'm more worried about the personality cult, a...I'm more worried about the personality cult, authoritarian ecclesiology and the money making ventures.<br /><br />Men like Driscoll make me think I'm reading a different Bible. I hope he is born from above some day.Calhttp://leadme.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-21515966845311487302012-08-17T17:13:40.579-07:002012-08-17T17:13:40.579-07:00Kevin,
The reason I've come to the conclusion...Kevin,<br /><br />The reason I've come to the conclusion about them operating covertly, at some level, is because I have been trying to conceive of an plausible explanation for why and how TGC and other movements like them are having the kind of impact they are with Evangelical churches that have been hitorically antagonistic towards classic Calvinist theology. When I read TGC's Confessional Statement they are neither explicit or overt about the fact that the theology they endorse is 5 point Calvinist in orientation. This has led me to think they have done this intentionally, and in a way that makes Calvinist theology appealing to those it wouldn't be otherwise. You're honestly going to assert that this isn't covert??Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-23241673602227720312012-08-17T17:00:29.963-07:002012-08-17T17:00:29.963-07:00Give me a break, Kevin!
I just quoted from TGC...Give me a break, Kevin!<br /><br />I just quoted from TGC's Confessional Statement, where do you read anything about "Calvinism" in any part of their statement---other than the fact that is clearly representative of 5 point Calvinist theology [BUT, only for those who know how to discern such things ... like you, and me, and others who pay attention more closely]. You seem to be somewhat out of touch with people in the pew, at least in American Evangelicalism; most folk don't have a clue about what they ingest theologically from Sunday in Sunday out. This is primarily the audience of my posts here [not folk who can say things like "As you know, I think a Barthian modification of Reformed theology is better ..."]. Most folks DON'T know, and I think this can help explain how the theology of TGC and Resurgence etc. are making in roads into churches in Evangelicalism that have historically been opposed, even heatedly, toward Classic Calvinist theology (my particular local church exemplifies this in spades, but I know of plenty of others [I have pastor friends from various denominations who have also imbibed this kind of theology whether that be from TGC or MacARthur's Shepherd Conferences etc.]. <br /><br />I know that they think (TGC Driscoll et al) that they have the Gospel owned; I am saying they don't and shouldn't! And I do think that TGC and Resurgence etc operate insidiously for the reasons I have already suggested.Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-68165885031682645102012-08-17T16:37:45.117-07:002012-08-17T16:37:45.117-07:00I really don't see how TGC is insidious in its...I really don't see how TGC is insidious in its usage of Reformed theology. They have been very explicit about their Reformed identity from the get-go. Everyone knows that they are 5-point Calvinists. Their leaders (Piper, Mohler, Driscoll, etc.) are as vocal in their Calvinism as can be expected. Of course, TGC does not advertise the label of "Calvinism" at every turn, because they want the focus on the Gospel, just as Arminians don't advertise the "Arminian" label at every turn. Classical Calvinism is, in their estimation, the best, clearest, and most effective way to communicate the Gospel. [As you know, I think a Barthian modification of Reformed theology is a better, clearer, and more faithful articulation of the Gospel.] Thus, they use Calvinist language and Calvinist emphases all over the place...not slyly "crafting" a method and language that is palpable.<br /><br />Once again, "insidiuous" and "covertly" is just a ridiculous accusation. If certain Arminian (or generic evangelical) pastors are too inept to discern the theology of TGC, then that's not TGC's fault. I really can't imagine TGC being more clear about where they stand on Calvinist doctrine.<br /><br />You can pooh-pooh the theology of TGC all day long, but to attack their effectiveness as "covert" is something I expect on a political campaign trail...not on a serious theology blog.Kevin Davishttp://dogmatics.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-70744649992644172362012-08-17T16:07:55.179-07:002012-08-17T16:07:55.179-07:00Hi Bob,
Thank you, and thanks for the encourageme...Hi Bob,<br /><br />Thank you, and thanks for the encouragement. I am kicking against the goads with a post like this, which is associated with some personal connections. In other words, I do experience fall out even amongst my friends who are 5 point Calvinists, if and when they read posts like this from me. But I write posts like this because I sincerely believe that 5 point Calvinist THEOLOGY is dangerous to the Christian soul. I would not doubt that Martin Luther, Calvin and others had to kick against such goads, when they lived in a Roman Catholic ecclesio-political-cultural context; ironically those who claim these very reformer's lineage today, have created and are creating a Christian sub-culture that is very resonate with their Roman Catholic one. In other words, there is always going to be fall out when any of us kick against the predominate mode of popular theological discourse in America. It just happens that this mode is mostly shaped by 5 point Calvinist theology, at the popular level. Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2934219918554432299.post-71337166504194149422012-08-17T15:14:31.823-07:002012-08-17T15:14:31.823-07:00THANK YOU! For saying what needs to be said. It ...THANK YOU! For saying what needs to be said. It is insidious, even if the intent is benign. 5 point Calvinism has had a dramatic impact in the Evangelical Church in my lifetime. It limits the proclamation of the gospel, inhibits outreach, and intimidates many. God bless your ministry. Keep up the good work.bobfromchicagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827950716222814876noreply@blogger.com